So here I am to provide information on finding suitable long guns for people trapped in the various Soviet states enforcing the bullsh*t SAW laws within the this great land we call the United States. I'm leaving handguns out since they involve too much fooking redtape to own legally in states with SAW laws. I prefer to use SAW because if I say what it stands for I'm forced to yell "F*** [insert all the names of SAW ban supporters]!" and then spit on a piece of paper listing said laws.
Basically here are a few things needed to make a rifle a "Semiautomatic Assault Weapon" (excuse me for a moment) in most states:
Quote: A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of
the following:
A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
A thumbhole stock.
A folding or telescoping stock.
A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
A flash suppressor.
A forward pistol grip.
A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10
A bayonet lug.
rounds. This list is by no means complete and I will be adding more.
Disclaimer. I am not a lawyer. I do not play one on TV. SAW ban laws vary from state to state. I'll update as I learn more.
The SKS
The old. The reliable. The very near and dear to my heart SKS. She ain't pretty, but if I were strapped for cash and needed a rifle ASAP it would be my first choice. Back in the day when they first hit the market they could be as low as $50. I kid you not. I've even heard of a few only costing $18, but I'm a bit skeptical of that price. Now they're about 2-5 times that price. Basically it's a semi-auto rifle using the 7.62x39mm cartridge. It has either a 10rd or 5rd (sold as hunting rifle) fixed magazine. Which is loaded through the top with 10rd charger clips. Common ones have a folding blade or spike bayonet and wooden furniture.
You can modify these bad boys any way you like (if the state allows it). Pistol grips, telescoping stocks, folding stocks, (with the right furniture) forward mounted vertical grips, and a whole lot of other stuff. However, if you modifiy it to accept a detachable magazine you cannot have any eeeevvviiillll baby killing chain lightning features listed above. In California (and some other states) SKS rifles with detachable magazines are banned. Also in California Yugo SKS rifles that have the grenade launching attachment are banned.
Now for the deal breaker.... Price can run anywhere from $200-300 depending on make and any doodads it has on it. Probably going to keep going up in price thanks to a Democrat controlled congress and Mr. Obama/Biden. At least until they're all bought up, banned federally, or McCain wins the election. Russian being the most expensive you'll run across. If you see a North Korean, North Vietnamese, or East German SKS at that price buy it. They're the rarest of all SKS rifles and you won't regret the purchase. A Chinese, Romanian, or Yugo SKS can be had for less than $200. Usually from someone is in bad need of money and/or doesn't know what it is worth now.
Saiga rifles
This little rifle is of great interest to me. If I had the money to spend I'd buy for myself. Don't know a whole lot about them though. It's kind of in a gray area for this post. I can't figure out if it's banned or not. I'm pretty sure it's legal in most states with SAW ban laws. However it appears to be on the banned list in California. Only people in CA own them and are buying them. What's being said is they were banned under another importer/manufacturer's name, but these new ones are under another name that is not on the banned list (yet). Tread with caution if you decide to look into purchasing one.
These rifles are based mostly on the kalashnikov design (which is why they are banned in most states). Slightly altered so it can get past that damned import ban on a majority of semi-auto rifles. Semi-automatic with a detachable magazine. Who wouldn't like it? Rifles are offered in .223, 7.62x39mm, .308 Winchester, and even .30-06. Magazine capacity depends on the rifle you're buying. First two I think have magazines with a ten round capacity. While they can be converted so they look almost like an kalashnikov rifle, have all kinds of eeeeevvviiilll baby killing chain lightning features, and/or accept kalashnikov magazines you may not want to do that. Why? It's illegal on the federal level (that damned import ban) unless you replace a certain number of eeeevvviiilll foreign parts with American made parts.
Price I can't exactly tell... Varies place to place... Use the link above to figure out what you're looking for exactly, shop around, and/or get a dealer to special order it for you. If you're in CA and illegal buy it now before it's added to the banned list.
Kel-Tec SU-16
More than one rifle. There are like.... Five to choose from. One might not be legal though. Never handled one of these, but if McCain makes it into office this year I'll definately be buying one. You can guess as to which one. Compact as it is I think it would be a nice thing to keep in the trunk. These babies use the 5.56 cartridge and accept M16 magazines. Major bonus after Z-Day for you scrounging types.
Problems? Do not seem that durable. I've heard rumors that their of hit and miss quality. However those rumors come from the same place as talk about "AK inaccuracy" and Hi-Point firearms being jammomatic bombs. Take them with a grain of salt as I've also heard of kalashnikov rifles reaching out to 500 yards and Hi-Point firearms running no problem at all. Price listed says $775, but I'm sure you can get them for $650 or less.
Kel-Tec Sub-2000
Nothing different from what I said about the SU-16. Other than there is one model to choose from, they're offered in 9mm or .40 S&W, and they can accept various pistol mags. If I had to buy one I'd be torn between one that can accept Beretta magazines and Glock magazines.
Nothing different from what I said about the SU-16. Price listed is about $400, you can find them for less.
Mini-14
If the old military style rifles were available again it would be one of my favorite arms. That bayonet lug calls to me. However said model isn't that available and would be illegal in any state with an SAW ban. Sporting rifle is legal and a pretty good gun. Isn't as tough as I'd orginally believed it to be. Can't say it applies to all of the rifles, but one does not like Wolf .223 ammunition. Might not be the rifle though. Could be ammunition since I heard Wolf's loads are weak.
Any way this rifle is legal as long as you don't add any eeeeevvviiillll baby killing chain lightning features to it. One thing I like about this rifle is that it doesn't look like anything illegal in it's regular form loaded with 10rd magazines. It'll drift under any police radar when an AR-15 or kalashnikov rifle will net you a full cavity search. I think the rifle could use a heavier barrel, but that would cost almost the price of a new rifle. What's the damage on one? Anywhere from $450 to a grand. It sucks, I know...
Mini-30
Basically a Mini-14 using the 7.62x39mm cartridge. Nothing to say that is different from the Mini-14. Other than you don't want to put any foreign miliary surplus through this rifle.
Mini-14 6.8SPC
Mini-14 using the 6.8SPC cartridge. Nothing else to say really. Other than 6.8SPC is expensive and you might want to look into reloading.
There you have it people. Unless you live in Massachusetts, New Jersey, or D.C. quit b****ing and go buy a rifle.
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They have an SKS for six at Big5, but id rather shoot myself in the foot then shell out that kind of cash for a Big5 surplus rifle. 'less it was an m1, but that'd never happen.
If it was two hundred that isn't a bad price compared to what it will be in the future. I haven't seen an SKS for $200 at any gunshow or through the paper. Only ones I've seen for less were in Shotgun News or on Gunbroker. Still equals $200+ with shipping and dealer's fee. Unless you've got a C&R FFL and score one of those listed in the $140s area.
Consider this. Back in the 60s you could get an M1 for $20-30 through the mail. Now you'll be lucky to get an M1 in good condition for $500 through the CMP. You won't find a surplus garand for less than a grand now days. All the ones I've seen at gunshows were new rifles from Springfield Armory with the cheapest being $750. Mauser 98ks use to be advertised in NRA magazines for $199. I watched them climb up to $399 and drop back down to $199. I'm willing to bet they'll jump back up to $399 and eventually to $500 in about five more years.
Sorry I forgot to post prices:
SKS's- I paid $120 and $180 for the Yugo and the Chinese respectively
Saiga- about $300 after NICS and taxes
Sub2K- $280 a year and a half ago
Magazines will add much more to the cost of the gun... Saiga 10 rounders (for most models) go for $30 each, and up from there for 3 compliant part magazines. In order to use regular cheap AK mags, you need to install a bullet guide in the .223 and 7.62x39. Beretta mags for the Kel Tec are expensive as well, but Mec Gar makes some pretty well made and well priced mags. I won't go into SKS mags, because I find them a waste of time and money, just use the stock fixed mag.
Really no point in talking about modifying an SKS to use detachable magazines or mention magazines over ten rounds for other firearms. I doubt any of our members would risk legal trouble in the states they live.
Long time lurker, really first time poster, just thought I'd chime in on some of your ideas. I own a few of the guns on the list, and I'm quite happy with them. First on my list would also definitely be an SKS. Many people have an issue with them and don't consider them a true fighting rifle, but I actually took both of my SKS's (Chinese and Yugo 59/66) to Front Sight Firearm Training Institute and competed with all of the M4gerys and AKs present. For me the Monte Carlo style stock just works better, I'm not such a big fan of the pistol grip ergonomics on either the AK or AR, it reminds me more of an M1a. My brother uses an AR-15 in a retro A1 styling that just doesn't feel comfortable in my hands. The SKS is best used in the 0-250 yard range, but I've shot it effectively out to about 400 yards no problem. Use stripper clips, ignore the "high capacity mags" unless you have a Chinese or Russian and use Tapco 20 rounders. Probably my next favorite rifle is my Saiga with 16 inch barrel in .223. I've kept it unconverted as of yet, but am still considering going through the 922 loops (Tapco is coming out with a pistol grip and stock set that doesn't require moving the trigger group). It's light, compact, efficient, and a blast to shoot. My one complaint on Saigas in general is the "loud" retort. It could use a muzzle break... In .223, it combines the relatively flat shooting and accurate round of an AR to the reliability and ruggedness of an AK... I hope to get another in .308 soon as well. The final gun that I have from your list is the sub-2000... or rather, my wife has a sub-2000. It's a handy little carbine in 9mm, uses Beretta mags (mostly the big 20+ rounders), and is "minute of soda bottle" at up to 100 yards. The longer barrel over a pistol allows the round to travel at roughly the same velocity as a .357 upon exiting. This gun is probably our favorite to take to the range.
A few other rifles that may not have been considered include:
SMLE or Lee Enfields (especially the Ishapore ones rechambered to 7.62x51)
French MAS
Mosin Nagants
Savage Series bolt guns (used they can be found dirt cheap)
FN49
ARs or AKs with Monster Man Grips
I realize some of these are bolt guns, but in many of the commie states, they may just be the only option available in the future... The SMLE is extremely fast in cycling the bolt so I wouldn't look down on it in a pinch.
Just my humble opinion, but I think bolt guns are poor choices for main rifles. Only exception I would make is for military-surplus bolt-actions. However that is only for durability, and only if no other type of repeating rifle is available. Only bolt-gun I'd depend on as a main rifle is a reproduction of the SMLE I've seen that is a .308 and it accepts M14 magazines. Sadly I think it cannot be imported, but luckily it's for sale in Canada (road trip anyone?).
Here it is.... Damn you Australia!
Adding to the existing SAW alternatives is an off list AR or AK modified out of state to have a monsterman grip or fixed magazine to go around the SAW ban laws.
I'm in california and decided to take that path to get an AK variant in 5.45x39mm.
there is this company LAN World Inc that claims is the #1 source for california complaint firearms. Essentially all you need to do is to have an AK or AR either with a fixed magazine or one without a pistol grip and It's legal. Once you leave commie state like california all you need to do is to get a replacement grip and its like new again.
An California legal AK in 7.62x39mm is about 600 bucks.
An California legal AK in 5.45x39mm is about 400 bucks
An California legal Saiga rifle is about $350-$500
site link
http://www.lanworldinc.com/
they also sell other california compliant firearms that are cooler than an AK, but cost several times as much. If you had about 2500 bucks you have a wide choice of FNH, Thompson, the GSG5, Sig arms 5.56 and a MSAR STG 556.
I was going to add ARs and AKs, but I still haven't gotten around to working on updating the list. Not to mention looking up laws concerning the two styles of rifles actually gave me a head ache. Like I keep trying to say the list is no where near complete.
That would be partially incorrect and partially correct. Like you said it's got to be an off list receiver and it cannot have any eeeeevvviiiilllll baby killing chain lightning features if it has a detachable magazine.
So far this is the best non-headache resulting article concerning ARS/AKs in California.
Go out and buy a rifle. You know you want to....