There is almost an unavoidable marshal law assumption in this situation. If the perimeter is secure and zombie swarms have been repeled from the "camp", it is surely due to the military personnel and at least decent leadership and control by the captain. The civilians almost certainly feel a sense of security and loyalty towards the captain and a few of his more personable officers as a result. Judging from small town politics, many of the civilians already have issues with the deputy mayor's ability to get the trash taken and the parks mowed before the Zed or they never knew him, so he has limited trust in his ability to deal with their needs in this situation. Anyone lower than a governor, lt. governor, state legislator, mayor of a large city (possibly), or maybe, MAYBE a really compitent sherrif, is going to have little sway over the captain in terms of authority beyond just the force of personality. The Captain is incharge, period.

If the deputy mayor has the skill to quell arguments and convince people to stick with a plan, the captain will probably use him as a liason to the civilians to relay orders, explain plans, distribute rations, oversee civilian assignments/ chores, organize the day to day living structure, to settle minor disputes, to investigate bigger issues, and possibly as an advisor on scavenging the area and other matters. If he does not, the captain is likely to usurp him under the pretext of marshal law for one of his own officers or for a local business leader with moral authority in the community.

Civilian volunteers/ recruits will probably be untilized as drivers or carriers on supply, scouting, or rescue missions under military support during various operations if the camp situation remains isolated or contracted on beyond a few months. If major movement or spliting of the camp (into multiple cells or compounds) becomes needed, there may be a symbolance of democracy injected back into the civilian sector by the captain; electing teamleaders, family spokesmen, advisors for a civilian board/ counsel etc. This would all be under the umbrella that the military wing remained in control for security purposes.

If violence remained unquelled or the zombie threat proved more difficult/ costly over time, things might get really dark resembling an internment camp more than any sort of partnership.

There would be no jury trials. Warnings would be issued. The Captain might even order an execution or two on the military side. The civilian side would probably involve confinement or possibly even banishment. If the civilians started facing military executions, that might be the whole ballgame. You then have a military despot with a slave workforce. It would take a skilled captain to avoid this during an apocolypse. Ironically, the American military considers many of its experienced captains to be some of their best commanders on the field combat level. This captain was in the U.S. when Z-Day occured, so either he happened to be on leave or you have a toss up as to what level of leader you are dealing with.

As long as I have nothing, you can never take what's mine.

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Well, I'd agree that some form of marshal law is probably inevitable. I think some of this stuff piqued my interest from Battlestar Galactica.

However, as competent as a captain might be, I can't but wonder if the townspeople would prefer the familiar face of the deputy mayor--assuming he has done some good with parks, sanitation, etc. The scenario gets even fuzzier depending on the location of the town. Let's say if it was near the UC Berkely campus, there'd be a lot of mistrust towards the military. On the other hand, Oceanside CA (near Camp Pendleton) might wholeheartedly flip towards military government.

The other kicker in this scenario, is the number of National Guard under the captain's command. Although federalized, I wonder where a local resident's (who is also National Guard) loyalties may lie? I'd assume it would be related to length of service and how the civilians were being treated.

I'd think also think that, in order to try to maintain some sense of justice and normalcy, some form of jury would have to be maintained. Otherwise, the captain Is king/warlord; and the whole game of government is over.

I'd don't think juries of 12 could be maintained. But juries of 3 or 5 might be possible. The composition could be Captain, Acting Mayor, and a random other. I would guess too, that to maintain military discipline the captain would have to follow UCMJ as long as possible. I think it goes back to the original issue of "playing well with others." The guys with the guns need the guys without. If labor is forced or perceived as unfair, then morale tanks, productivity tanks, and somebody in a crucial situation screws up (possibly even intentionally).

If the captain (on leave) is one of the best and brightest she/he will act to maintain at least the illusion of democratic government as long as possible.

Somebody out there must know the military justice side. I've only seen a little on t.v. shows, CNN, and such. I'm curious how their jury trials would function.

I messed with Texas.

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Surviving Martial Law.

Wikipedia Martial Law Article.

FEMA Camps.

These may help the current conversation...

"They drew first blood not me..." (Stallone in Rambo: First Blood)

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Yeah, I was also looking up UCMJ on Wiki...

I'm not clear on how many jurists a General Courts Marshal requires. I understand that there is some controversy in that the commander can essentially select the jury (stack the deck?).

The Summary Courts Marshal seems to be limited in scope of punishment. I think that's a good idea, considering every living/breathing/contributing member of a post-Zed society should be kept alive if at all possible.

I'll check those links, too. Thanks.

EDIT: Let me try to re-emphasize "coordinate" rather than "dominate." In my life I've met many a veteran (Dad, Uncle, Granddad) and many serving soldiers. They on the whole, value the Constitution as much as I do (if not more so). The risk of marshal law deteriorating into despotism is always high. Anybody under extreme stress, civilian or military, holding the persuader (gun) can devolve into a warlord.

But, at least for this post, let us take a leap of faith, and hypothesize how a military unit and a civilian government Could coordinate. Maintaining separate codes of justice, especially penalties, in a small cantonment would become unwieldy. What do you see as the hybrid? It can't be JJE (judge, jury, executioner), nor can it be an eternity of defense motions to keep the guilty from justice.

I messed with Texas.

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Really does have to do with the area hit. Never really noticed it until a little while ago. Comparing New Orleans after Katrina with that place (Iowa?) that got flooded really badly.

I always assume the worse. Military is the hammer carried by an angry selfish giant. Everything is fine and dandy until you're on the giant's bad side. Don't know what would get you on it's badside so best to avoid it all together unless you've got no choice.

By the way... Kudos on the amount of information provided in this topic.

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Thanks to Chilbert again.

I'd assume the worst, too. But I'd also want to plan for the better. We'll never have a "best" scenario when Zed arrives. The military will be as confused and miserable as the rest of the population. What can be done to keep the "Hammer" from swinging on civvies?

I did think of something that would make someone think twice about totalitarian control: vengeful suicide.

If the Zed virus animates Anyone who dies, then it would just take one oppressed civilian to well, voluntarily leave the mortal coil, re-animate and wreak havoc inside the camp. Talk about sticking it to the Man.

I think that doubles the importance of at least creating a semblance of a fair society inside the walls. If the guy with the power enslaves the population, that forces desperation and hopelessness. I'm certain there are camps that will go bad, because of lack of cooperation or full-on slavery. All the more reason to figure out a way to play "fair."

I messed with Texas.

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You'd be surprised how quickly the most liberal anti-establishment intellectuals get real passive and submissive when they are in the midst of a crisis. In the calm afterwards, they might become critical of military tactics, but in the middle of regular zombie attacks, they would either find themselves quietly following the orders of the guys keeping them alive or the majority of civilians around them that want to stay alive would strongly convince them to sit down and shut up.

The jury idea can only have a glimmer of hope outside of active combat which your scenario doesn't provide. There are no military justice proceedings until the parties involved are extracted far from zones of combat and extensive investigations have occured. The "new society justice" you are suggesting would only occur after a number of conditions had been met. First, the military units would have to resolve that society had collapsed and there were no higher ranking officials coming. This might not happen before most of them were dead or their own organization collapsed. This also would not lend itself to an organized jury system. They would have to have fallen back from their camp position to a semi-permanent stronghold or compound that provided a symbol of rest and security. The wings of military and civilian leadership would have to decide to merge into a survival based, self contained society. Even though this seems like a logical step to us on this site, it would be a substantial leap within the structure you described.

As long as I have nothing, you can never take what's mine.

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Well let me not nitpick, but clarify:

If a community was under relentless, sustained combat for two months, there wouldn't be much discussion about judicial process (i.e. nobody's sleeping, everyone's at the wall). They'd probably be fast on their way to dying either by attrition, incaution, thirst and/or starvation.

To clarify: The community has been under intermittent attack for two months. I'll probably butcher this quote, but someone once said: "War is 95% boredom... the other 5% is absolute horror."

So during that 95% time, there will be a healthy opportunity for friction, boredom, negotiation, and planning. I really do think this is a possible (if not probable) scenario. The downtime will be the "crazy making" time. Somebody, both civilian and military, will have to step in to make daily life efficient, purposeful and hope-sustaining.

When I stated secured perimeter, I was trying to be ambiguous.
But, if this place sustains 100 people for two months, it is effectively a semi-permanent base... say maybe the water treatment plant? Fort Costco? Who knows? The point is these two disparate groups have made it for two months without external support. What hybrid government arises?

But I did state that the civilians possess something critical for the military unit's survival: it could be a skill set, like doctors. It could be management of the food and/or water supply. If the military just takes it, or forces cooperation, they risk sabotage.

One might think, really? Would a human be that stupid? Yep. I'd bet on it. I believe they've done "fairness" experiments on primates. The result was (paraphrasing) the chimp would forgo his banana, if he saw his competitor was going to get three. Just as an anecdote, has anyone with siblings, picked a fight with the brother/sister in order that he or she wouldn't get the better prize (and you both ended up getting grounded)? Someone will self-sabotage to keep someone else from getting a (perceived) unfair advantage--even in the ever present danger of Zed.

I would expect even the most vociferous left wing liberal, or most gun-toting conservative to shut his trap while the military does its thing--for the first few weeks. But when the action lulls, and the boredom, hopelessness, lack of government continuity rolls in... what then?

Furthermore, I'd hazard a guess that the military personnel will tire quickly of bearing the brunt of the fighting. At some point, volunteering and/or a draft will arise.

Can it be done in a functional, rather than forced manner?

I messed with Texas.

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The CDC would first issue a decree to be vigilant in response to a viral contagion. In this day and age with the media to support it, I'm pretty sure the zombie situation would be immediately apparent to all. Martial law would be declared putting all decision making power into the hands of the local military commander and/or any commands from up the chain, to include the president. (assuming he's safe in a command bunker sending shortwave and full spectrum broadcasts, think Cheyenne Mountain or Camp David C&C bunker near the southern quad. Local law enforcement would retain current rank (ever wonder why they use military ranks) and fall in under the command of the local military infrastructure (whatever is left). In most cities, most people cannot even tell you who the mayor is much less the deputy mayor so I believe that the importance of city officials is going to be underplayed. (except in tightly knit communities) The military is going to try to secure a base of operations outside or surrounding the affected area, and then would attempt to protect vital infrastructure, important people, and control points of entry. If the situation allows and personnel can be spared, they would mount patrols to sweep by quadrants, and eliminate the undead. there would be law by decree, as the senior ranking military officer would have authority. Should anyone disgree, they would be promptly arrested, and if the situation escalated, summarily executed. the military swears allegiance to it's chain of command in support of it's country, not it's country in support of it's chain of command. If there are any independently minded soldiers, they won't be there, and the rest will revert to training. They will complete or attempt to complete the mission. civilians will most likely be told to congregate in mass meeting sites that will be protected by the military much like the Romero portrayals would have you think. It would probably fail due to a lack of manpower, long hours on alert, and public hysteria. Also the battlefield would not be in favor of our troops as they would be from neighboring areas (guard) and would be minimally trained (guard) and out of thier element, which for most guard units is not direct combat roles (most support) and certainly not small unit tactics (infantry) There will be that one fuckup who is given alot of control because of his position, or the cracked corporal, or some oddball that will drop the ball, and cause a royyyaaalll SNAFU. Cause that's what it's like when you work with the Guard. UCMJ always holds sway, but there must be witnesses or highly holeproof evidence, and a court system. (how soon do you think a case of rape would be tried, and what officer in the field will pull a soldier accused of rape by a woman who has no access to a rape kit, and who will most likely be iced by any soldier or soldiers friends who think she'll cause a scene when he needs rifles on the line.) The case would get lost in obscurity unless a soldier saw and reported it, and then it would be up to the commander in charge or the immediate superior to decide how to apply the code. Certain offences would allow for a summary capital punishment, but most described above would result in a rank bust or a pay cut, and the loss of unit cohesiveness in the middle of battle would be enough to err on the side of your troops over the civilians anyways. Most civilians put into that situation would act like sheep thankful for some protection and upset over the circumstances, but more concerned with thier overall safety rather than some transgressions by the troops. It took France years to kick U.S. troops out after repeated violations on it's society. Also a possible mass Stockholm syndrome would develop over time leading the survivors to be less and less likely to fight. Also no deputy or sherriff I know would directly challenge the chain of command in that situation, becuase they know they stand no chance and are more likely to cause unnecessary deaths in retaliation. This is how I would percieve it especially in a metro area like Atlanta, GA. Currently, everything would go to hell in a handbasket though, becuase 60 percent of our stationed troops are deployed around the world in Georgia including our Guard and Reserves. If you federalized all of the police, and gathered all of the remaining people, you might have an officer for every 100 undead, a chilling proposition indeed.
a final note, the larger the population is the harder it would be to control. Also, the less likely the deputy mayor is of being able to garner a coalition from within the civilian population that speaks for them all. For a group of 100 you are talking at least a platoon to protect. Also keep in mind that this all hinges on having two fairly competent leaders, because if one is a wack job, then that pretty much would make everyone side with the other guy. naturally.... lol.

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I want to be clear. i'm not in any way criticising your scenario. I think it is well structured and presents a very likely social set up in the rescue/ protect operations that will follow the first couple monthes of Dead Time. My point was that for there to be a real judicial process there would have to be a very specific chain of events unfolding that is unlikely to unfold under an active military command in an active war zone. I agree that there would be more down time than active combat otherwise the bullets and the men would be gone well before the two month mark. That doesn't change the fact that intermittent undead swarms is still active combat and the captain is going to avoid judicial process in all but very specific cases. A soldier turning on the other soldiers, maniac executions on the civilians, sexually assaulting minors while holding parents at gun point, and other such things that I don't want to type. These things would probably be handled by immidiate execution as opposed to trial. If the captain is feeling that a return to normal life is just over the horizon, he might try to detain offenders, but how long can that last?

The idea of being a camp or a compund is largely a mindset shift. If we assume then that the structure is there, that patrols are able to come and go to scavenge and resupply the location, and there is room inside to establish living areas beyond "everybody stay in the gym until we sort this all out", then it is possible that they might cross over to think "we are all in this together" or "it looks like this is going to be home so we better make this work." This may only happen if the captain and the civilian leader have excellent interpersonal skills and niether of them dies. Also if the military unit was posted locally before being called to defend (possible if they were able to establish a local stronghold that survived this long) and they had ties to the community. The sargent dated Mrs. Baker's daughter. She died, but he saved Mrs. Baker and her neighbors. They have been talking in the off time the past few monthes and now he plays cards with the deputy mayor's son who loves gen rummy. Private Smith spoke at the school and has E-mailed the class through the teacher Ms. Jones. He has a thing for Ms. Jones who saved ten of the students. They stick with her because most of them lost their parents. Private Smith (now promoted due to the loss of so many leaders) comes in to play guitar for the kids during his break. etc. etc.

It might be important that every able bodied civilian was incorporated into the command structure. Many would volunteer due to boredom or the need to feel back in control of their lives. These type of volunteers would be who the captain wanted anyway.

It is possible that they could evolve into a Dead World Community under the right conditons and with the right leadership. It would take a big leap on the part of the military.

As long as I have nothing, you can never take what's mine.

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